Re: "except"

["Jorge J. Llambias" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

And:
>I've already offered something for "only" and "except".

Yes, but only in expanded form. Instead of saying "only A is broda"
you want me to say "Ax: x=A <=> x is broda". Is there no way
to say it in the form {<sumti> broda}?

> As for "even",
>and "not-only" (which shd be distinguished from "not only") (and, for
>that matter, "still/already/at last", which also have the expectedness
>element), it depends whether you want "She thinks even Bill spoke" to
>mean "She thinks it is unexpected that it was Bill that spoke" or
>"It would be unexpected if it was Bill that spoke and she thinks
>that Bill spoke". If the former, use {spaji}.

I don't know. Let's complicate it a little bit more:

        ko'a spaji le du'u la bil cu cinba la salis

Does that mean:

        She is surprized that even Bill kissed Sally.
        She is surprized that Bill even kissed Sally.
        She is surprized that Bill kissed even Sally.

Or does it simply mean:

        She is surprized that Bill kissed Sally.

I would say the last one. How do we do the other three? The
unexpectedness is only a part of "even", there is more to it
than that, something like "among other cases, this is the most
remarkable". So, "Even Bill kissed Sally" means that among
those that kissed Sally, Bill is the most remarkable. "Bill even
kissed Sally" means that among the things he did to her, kissing
her is the most remarkable, and so on. I could say all that in
Lojban, of course, but the idea is to say it in a reasonably
succint manner, as in English or any other natlang.

>If the latter, then use
>some sort of UI-like object, e.g. {sei spaji seu}.

It is not really a matter of surprize. How do you translate:

        Not surprizingly, even Bill went to the dance.

It is not surprize-to-the-speaker that "even" shows. It is
general unexpectedness with regard to how the world ought to be
according to the background assumptions of the language community
as a whole. A savvy speaker may not be surprized by even the
most unexpected of things. The one least likely to go to the dance
was Bill, but maybe there was some overriding attraction that
made it not surprizing that even he went.

The same applies to already/still/at last. It is not the speaker
that rules the unexpectedness. It is perfectly reasonable to say:
"As I expected, he is still here", or "he finally started, three
hours late, which didn't surprize me one bit". I don't think that
".ue" has much to do with this.

Jorge