Re: Lojbab on lojban list (Was: Re: reply to And #3)

[Rick Nylander <rnylander@DTSI.COM>]

As a newbie who feels somewhat like he is overhearing his parents about
custody of the kids, please let me chime-in with my own (personal)
perspective - the lojban list is a floor-wax _and_ a dessert topping
(sorry).

Lojbab:
> Meanwhile a large volume of technical stuff establishes an image
> of the list and of the project that intimidates the beginner, ...

Intimidating, yes.  We aren't inclined to join in conversations that we
don't understand.  But there seems to be enough beginner stuff going on
that we can figure out that the list is for everyone - maybe just a
>little< more encouragement is required, sometimes.  I have noticed that
beginner oriented conversations tend to be relatively short, usually
asking a question and receiving the word(s) of God(s).   Occasionally, a
beginner sparks a controversy that sucks the advanced people in, too.
(Does "ironic use of attitudinals" ring any bells? :-)

And, replying to lojbab:
>> And finally, all this high-level technical discussion gives the
>> imopression that something important is being decided, something
>> that will CHANGE THE LANGUAGE.
>
>This reflects your own anxieties rather than anything inherent
>in the discussion.

No, this is not just lojbab's anxieties, they are mine too.  Often times
these debates really *do* look like decisions are being made, and that
lojban is still on the blocks and not ready for test-driving yet (boy, I
love them thar' metaphor thingies ;-).  Occasionally, as I read the list
I find myself wondering, "is it worth putting any effort into learning
this thing, if it's so poorly defined?"  An excellent example: someone
posted recently that they were going to make a list of the gismu that
would have to be changed to correct some problem (the nature of which I
didn't understand).  Scary.

It has been lojbab's continuing insistence that nothing is going to
change that has reassured me, and made it seem worthwhile to learn the
language.

Jorge responding to Lojbab:
>>Why do I participate - because it is on Lojban List and public and
>>therefore
>>influences the public image of the language.  If I cannot overcome the
>>image of Lojban as a ultra-technical debating society, I'll never get
the
>>1000 speakers I want in 5 years.
>
>I don't see how muddling these discussions helps to overcome that
>image

My personal observation is that often, lojbab's muddling tends to be in
terms I can almost understand, whereas I can often not follow the thread
at all otherwise.  The debates do often come off as somewhat elitist (I
think that's the word I want - maybe "high falutin'" would be better?)
otherwise.

I accept that tech. debates go on here, and I try to follow them as best
I can.  Sometimes I learn something new.  Most of the time they go over
my head.  That's o.k.  I'm not a philosopher/logician/linguist and I
don't expect to be able to follow a lot of what transpires.

To summarize:
Technical debates: (IMVHO) yes - keep 'em up.  It'd be nice if you could
make sure newbies at least understand the problem, though.  This would
probably benefit you too.  I've noticed one or two occasions where the
(advanced) people engaged in the debate didn't know what it was about
either - "Oh, *that's* what the problem is?"

Beginner support: yes - It'd be really cool for you advanced people, if
you come across something interesting in the language, to post little
challenges/contests/trivia notes here.  But I notice no lack of help
from any of you when a beginner does ask a question.

Rik.