Re: djuno and ce'u

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

>> This is not even true for English.  To be seasonal, many people "know"
>> that "Christ was born on Christmas Day", even though there is
>> considerable evidence even in the scriptural accounts that suggest
>> otherwise.  The scholars who interpret otherwise, and who know the
>> history of the association of Christmas with Dec. 25, "know" that Christ
>--More--
>> was NOT born on Christmas Day.
>
>I don't see how you are trying to make your point. By using
>scarequotes you are implicitly attributing the belief in the
>truth of the knowee to the knower rather than yourself.

I am not sure that I understand your point.  A claim that X knows Y says
nothing about I think/believe/know unless I am X IN LOJBAN.  In English
we seldom make statements about knowledge where the speaker might have reason
to dispute the truth of the "known".  However, since Lojban recognizes
multiple epistemologies as valid for truth and knowledge, Lojban does not
abide by the English convention.  Thus, for Lojban, I can say that the
Pope djuno ledu'u Mary was born via Immaculate Conception fo Catholic dogma
even though I as a non-Catholic, do not subscribe to that epistemology as
granting ME knowledge.

krici would not be the optimal choice since it implies no epistemological basis
for the belief.

>If you tell me that you find
>
>  He knows that Christ was born on Christmas Day and she knows that
>  Christ was born on Christmas day.
>
>acceptable, then I will not believe you.

I fail to see a reason why it would not be acceptable.  Last week, I would
have easily said that I am most other people know that teleportation is
impossible.  But then I read of the experiments that demonstrated quantum
teleportation, so I now know differently than before.  So to many other people
now know differently.  Buit those who have not been exposed to this new
information, know something else.

>> I am not sure what you mean.  We have "krici" for believe, which is
>> identical in the first 3 places to djuno, but requires no
>> epistemological place, because no epistemologically based evidence is
>> required for belief.
>
>It may be that no epistemologically based evidence is required for
>{krici}. But it is required for belief.
>The difference between the words _know_ and _believe_ is that only
>the former is "factive": only it presupposes the truth of the
>complement.

That is not the difference between the Lojban words.  Lojban first of all
distinguishes between facts and truths.  Only fatci is factive.

>We can start a discussion on truth and cognition, but it's not
>pertinent to what has been discussed so far.

I'm saying nothing about truth and cognition - I am explaining what the
Lojban words are prescribed to mean.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@access.digex.net
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
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