Re: how to say

[Colin Fine <C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK>]

Rick Morneau answers me:

>Colin Fine writes:
>>
>> 'Looking through a window' is NOT the same as 'looking through a
>> telescope'. Consider 'looking through a momentary gap between
>> passers-by'.
>>
>I would suggest that the stereotypical interpretation of "looking
>through a window" includes the concepts in both the "telescope" and
>"gap" examples. What you must decide is whether Lojban covers this
>particular combined semantic domain. If not, then you must either
>attach it to the closest existing domain or create a new one.
>
>In this case, I chose the instrumental interpretation because a
>window is a man-made artifact with a particular "instrumental"
>function. I imagine that Lojban is sufficiently robust to implement
>it either way, depending on what the speaker wishes to emphasize. As
>for the "gap" example, since a "gap" is clearly a channel, you
>probably want to translate "looking through" to indicate the channel
>concept. In some circumstances, however, you may want to translate it
>as instrumental to indicate that you are using the gap as an
>"instrument" or "tool" to accomplish an end. If you want to translate
>"I'm looking through my files", you would need a third concept.

This makes me uncomfortable, and I'm not sure if it's what Rick's saying, or
just the way he's expressing it. He says "whether Lojban covers this ...
domain" and "Lojban is sufficiently robust to .." as though Lojban is a bit
of technology that has or hasn't some capability.
But when you say "speak Lojban" that doesn't commit you to a single way of
expressing things. "Lojban covers [some] domain" is meaningless: the
particular words and expressions of Lojban cover various domains, and I
frequently find I can make distinctions in Lojban which I can just about
grasp but cannot express clearly in English.
To me, the concepts in "looking through a window" and "looking through a
telescope" *are* significantly different, so what you refer to a the
'stereotypical interpretation' is a bit of English confusion or ambiguity,
which I would prefer not to be reproduced in Lojban.  Thus if you write
"viska sepi'o lo canko" I will understand it as "see using a window", and
think of something different from what I would understand from "viska fi'o
pagre lo canko", "viska pa'o lo canko" or "canko viska" - though I may
possibly translate them all as "see through the window".
 When you say "attach it to the closest existing domain or create a new one"
I guess you are describing what I and everybody does in translating into
Lojban (or any other language), but it seems all arsy versy to me. There is a
particular semantic relationship I wish to express: I use the resources of
the language to express that as well as I need to in the context - the
description in terms of 'covering this demain' or failing that, finding a
best match, seems unsatisfactory.

I accept that you had reasons for choosing the instrumental interpretation. I
repeat that to me this would convey something different from the normal
interpretation of the English "looking through the window". I don't know what
it means to descirbe Lojban as robust: there are many forms of expression
available to the Lojban speaker, and often they are distinct in ways which
are not easy to translate. You could indeed regard a gap as a tool like a
telescope, though this is relatively unlikely.

The fact that you give the example of "looking through my files" disturbs me,
because it suggests that you are thinking at the level of words. "Look
through [files]" is an *utterly* different concept from "look through [a
window or a telescope]" and is no way germane to the argument.

Colin
 ========================================================================
There's a monkey on my shoulder   | Colin Fine
        and it's telling me lies      |  Dept of Computing
Just to stop me ever seeing       |   University of Bradford
    what's in front of my eyes.   |    Bradford, W. Yorks, England
It tells me what the world is like|      BD7 1DP
    and how I ought to be,        | Tel: 0274 733680 (h), 383915 (w)
And just what's gonna happen      |   c.j.fine@bradford.ac.uk
    if I ever dare be me.         | 'Morris dancers do it with bells on'
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