Re: JimC on Frank's easy text

[Colin Fine <C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK>]

I agre with Jim's approval of Frank's piece. I disagree with the majority of
his specific comments:

> I anxiously await comments on how authoritative "le cmalu mlatu" is,
>that is, whether it means exactly the same as "le mlatu poi cmalu" (not
>likely), or is a metaphor along the lines of "broken heart", or whether
>you have to kind of guess which cat is referred to.

I interpreted it as "le mlatu poi cmalu". What's the problem?

>> .i le nu le mlatu cu cliva le mi zdani cu se fanta

> Stylistically, it's better to put the main predicate early in the
>sentence, e.g. "fanta fe le nu ... cliva ..."  I believe that as
>written this is an observative, but I can't remember what wriggling is
>needed to de-observatize it.

I emphatically reject this comment. I too would tend to put the main selbri
first (just 'fanta lenu ...') but neither Jim nor I has any business
lecturing Frank on stylistics. Lojban stylistics are wide open.
As usage has grown up, the category of observative does not seem to be
significant - the x1 may be elided like any other tergismu. Probably Jim wil
be upset about this.

>> .i lo civla cu bartu le mi zdani
>
>It looks like we have no gismu for "infest", "infect", or even "habitat".

True for "infest". I don't see the relevance of "infect". Habitat is "se
xabju" (or "na'o se xabju" if necessary). In context, Frank's expression
seems quite adequate.

> I thought you
>asserted that the cats were prevented from living in your house
>(pragmatically implying that they in fact don't live there), while you
>really mean that subsequent discourse (the ten sentences or so about
>cat salad) tells a workaround which prevents the undesired result of
>the cats not living in your house.  I'm not sure how to express this
>right in Lojban.

I think you must be misinterpreting "cliva" as 'live'.

>I don't have "rorci" on my list.  Closest I can come is jbena = born.
>Maybe my list is old.

Yes, it is:
rorci  ror          procreate        engenders/procreates/begets x2 with
coparent x3; (cf. rirni, se panzi, mamta, patfu, tarbi)

>> .i le mlatu cu to'e nelci le nu vitke le danlu mikce
>
>A.  Who is the guest?  Obviously it's the cat, but I would like to see
>rules to govern this interpretation, not vague common sense.

Insofar as there are rules of interpretation, the x1 (which is here the cat)
is the answer. I agree that there are cases which are unsatisfactorily vague:
I don't think this is one of them.

>
>B.  I'm not sure of "guest" as the predicate.  "le mlatu cu se mikce le
>danlu mikce" is semantically better, but because it repeats "mikce"
>the sentence is ugly.

I agree mildly. I'm not certain about "vitke" - though the meaning is "is a
guest/visitor of" and it's not obviously wrong. I agree about the form with
"se mikce" - both about its semantic appropriateness, and about its stylistic
ineptitude.

> > .i mi bevri le mlatu poi nenri le mlatu bevri tanxe ku'o le danlu mikce
>
>Probably you want "noi" (supplementary subordinate clause) rather than
>"poi" (restrictive clause).  What you actually said was "among the cats,
>pick the one in the box; that's the one I carry."

I agree
>
>Also, this section I think needs a long scope "habitual" tense, but I've
>lost track of how to say that.  Without it, you focus on one or a few
>specific instances.

I disagree. I probably would put in such a tense, but it is one of the tenets
of lojban that tenses etc are optional. It may be that Jim as a reader will
focus on specific instances, but it is not true that that is what the Lojban
text does.


>> .i mi na djica le nu le mlatu cu krici le nu
>>     le nu nenri le karce cu nibli le nu vitke le danlu mikce
>
>This sentence is complicated, but is well constructed, and all parts
>are needed.  I think "nibli" is not quite right, being (I think) for
>things like theorems and logic.  I would use "zi se balvi" (future) or
>"zi purci" (past), waffling on the causal connection, which cats can't
>comprehend.  You can use "zi" (short interval) alone like this, can't
>you?

It's putting the "nibli" (logical connection) in the mind of the cat; Jim may
be right that they cannot comprehend that - how does he know? I would tend to
use "se jalge", but "zi se balvi" is good too.

>> .i le mlatu cu catlu fi'o farna pagre [fe'u] le canko
>
>So that's why you asked that particular question!  "fe'u" would go after
>"le canko" because you want the clause to include it, and being terminal,
>"fe'u" could be elided.

I had a feeling the "fe'u should come after, but didn't check.

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There's a monkey on my shoulder   | Colin Fine
        and it's telling me lies      |  Dept of Computing
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