Re: Indirect questions

[And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>]

Jorge:
> >On reflection, I now think that it makes more sense for Zo,
> >lu, zoi, etc. to denote text-types. This is because zo/lu/zoi
> >are not selbri valsi. Since there may be many tokens of a
> >given text-type, reference to a text-token should be by means
> >of a selbri (e.g. "le nu cusku zo coi" - 'an utterance of the
> >text-type _coi_').
>
> Sounds reasonable. Then {le nu cusku re zo coi} would not
> be meaningful. I think that if zo is a text-type, that should
> really be {le nu reroi cusku zo coi} or {lei re nu cusku zo coi}.
> The first one (re zo coi) would be wrong, right?

Yes.

>  >  le nu mi cusku lu go'i li'u cu danfu le nu cusku lu xu do badri
> >     li'u
> >  My saying "I am" is an answer to someone's saying "Are you sad?".
>
> Right. Or for short:
>
>         tu'a lu go'i li'u cu danfu tu'a lu xu do badri li'u

Yes.

> >> >> {ko cusku le sedu'u xukau do badri} = "Say whether you're sad".
> >> if {da de du'u xukau do badri}, then {da} is a proposition and {de} is
> >> a text-type corresponding to that proposition.
> >
> >But I'd have thought that the text-type corresponding to
> >the propositionoid "xu kau do badri" is {xu kau do badri}.
>
> No! The text type {lu xu kau do badri} is independent of context.
> The propositionoid {du'u xu kau do badri} is context dependent.

I see that, but have trouble grasping the rest of your point...

> It seems to me that the only way you can associate a text-type
> with a proposition is through an utterance,

A text-type is a pairing of a sound-pattern (not the actual
physical sounds themselves) and a meaning, which is a possibly
incomplete proposition - a proposition fragment or (za`e)
"propositionoid".

> and different
> utterances will link a given text-type with different propositions,
> as well as different utterances will link a given proposition
> with diffrent text-types.

That's right. Different utterances of the same text-type will
enrich the same propositionoid to yield a context-specific fully
fledged complete proposition.

> For example, the text type {lu mi badri} is linked with a different
> propositions when you say it than when I say it. If I say it, it
> is linked with the proposition {le du'u mi badri}, and if you say it,
> with {le du'u do badri}.

Of course.

> The proposition {le du'u mi badri} is linked with different text-types,
> depending on who wants to express it. I would have to use
> the type {lu mi badri}, you would have to choose between the
> types {lu do badri} or {lu la xorxes badri}, depending on who
> you're talking to.

Right.

> So du'u is not a one-to-one relationship.

Not sure what that means.

But anyway, back to the original point:

> >> >> {ko cusku le sedu'u xukau do badri} = "Say whether you're
> >> >> sad".

It means "ko cusku the text type that expresses the proposition(oid)
(that is expressed in Lojban by) {xu kau do badri}". So,
noting your corrections, but basically sticking to my original
contention, I think {ko cusku le sedu'u xukau do badri} means
not "Say whether you're sad" but "ko cusku lu xu kau mi badri li`u".

Ah... I think the light is dawning. I reckon I sort of grasp
your point now. Hmm. If {mi djuno le du`u xu kau ko`a badri}
means "for every x, a jetlai of le du`u ko`a badri, I know
that x is jetlai of le du`u ko`a badri". The crucial thing
is that this only makes sense when {Q kau} occurs within a
proposition that itself is an argument of an epistemic
predicate. I no think {ko cusku le sedu'u xukau do badri}
just doesn't make sense at all.

> >I agree that {da} is a proposition and {de} is a text-type
> >corresponding to that proposition, but what proposition and
> >text-type do you think da & de are?
>
> [We were talking about {ko cusku le sedu'u xukau do badri}.]
>
> The propositionoid is "whether you're sad".

That's not really a propositionoid. It is a linguistic expression
that makes sense only when the clause is an argument of an
epistemic predicate.

> The text-type I don't
> know, since there wasn't yet any utterance to link the prepositionoid
> with a text-type. You'll have to choose an appropriate text-type and
> say it in order to satisfy my ko-request. For example, it could be:
>
> le du'u xukau do badri cu du'u xukau do badri kei lu mi badri li'u
> do'e le nu do cusku lu mi badri li'u
>
> The propositionoid whether you're sad is the prepositionoid
> whether you're sad linked with the text-type {mi badri} by your
> uttering the text type {mi badri}.
>
>  >> How would you say "Say whether you're sad"?
> >
> >  Ko ???? le du`u xu kau do badri
> >
> >-- I can't remember the appropriate word for "say".
> >Possibly something like "selvlagau" would do, but there
> >must be gismu for it.
>
> No, {cusku} should be the gismu for it, but for some reason it
> got tangled with text-types rather than with propositions, so that
> you have to use {sedu'u} which brings a text-type associated
> with the proposition.

and which seems not to work, moreover.

> All very complicated. There is also {bacru}
> for text-types.

I thought {bacru} meant to make a vocal sound. A text-type is
not a vocal sound.

> I don't know about {selvlagau}, maybe {seljufrygau}.

Both are suitable. Curious that one must use a lujvo for
so common a concept as "say".

> >> Would that work as an explication of the direct question?
> >Yes. Direct questions would reduce to a subcase of indirect
> >questions.
>
> Right. So now how do we explicate indirect questions? Obviously
> my explication using {le danfu be la'e lu xu ...} would be going in
> circles.

So I think.

> I would say that {mi djuno le du'u xukau do badri} means,
> as a first approximation, {mi djuno le du'u do ja'a badri ija
> mi jduno le du'u do na badri}. (It's only a first approximation
> because I'm ignoring fuzzy answers. To include them I would
> need an infinite number of alternations.)

And likewise for {ma} questions.

> Any buyers?

Yes.

> I forgot what was your explication using truth values.

It's just a more elegant version of yours. (See above for
{xu kau}. {ma kau} is only slightly more complicated.)

--And